Monday, August 14, 2017

Amir Hassanpour’s interview with Augusta Gudhart Philadelphia, June 12, 1977

  
                       Amir Hassanpour’s interview with Augusta Gudhart
Philadelphia, June 12, 1977

Transcribed from audio tape and annotated by Hassan Ghazi


Augusta Gudhart: I went into the mission field from Philadelphia, to Iran to Savoujbulax, a very nice little place in Persia. I had a hospital, to care the poor, to care the children, did midwifer, met different people. The people in Kurdistan were very very nice to live with and to help one another. And I learned the Kurdish language while we were translating the gospel of Saint Luke, with the men Mirza Shamuel and Mirza Rahman and I learned Kurdish and I rather liked the language of Kurdish. And we had a church and we had a dictionary printed in hymns and we did sing very nice but Mr. Fossum the man that died later on, we had a hymn to the tone of Onward Christian soldiers:

Weteni Bapirm, Kurdistan Qedim
Kéw u shax u Deshti xoshin bo dillim
Céy dayik u babme, malli xushk u bira
Her tozéki u berdéki, bom mirwariye

Emin pashan chùm bo Tebriz, wextéki unja tékell bù, pashan chùm Téhran [Gudhart utters the above sentences in Kurdish] and axri God dawa (War) in the whole world broke out war and I had to come home and I remember the dear friends in Kurdistan [Someone applauding in the background].

1908[1] the mission was started by Rev. Fossum and then we worked through Germany and there was a sister Meta van Der Schulenberg she was to be for the orphanage and helped in the translation work, with Mirza Rahman and Rev. Shamuel, and from there [Savoujbulax] we came on larger out on to the villages and when the government had doctors there, I worked with the doctors in Persia. Persian doctors I helped them, and they helped me and we educated them, and when the Persian government turned over the things to the government we left and I worked in Tabriz in a mission work and then I worked in Tehran with Dr. Saleh in Irani Hospital for a year and a half, and so 1940 when we all had to come home as mission field from all over the East, we all came home and I worked in America as a nurse.

A voice in the background: You have a lot of wonderful memories about all these people!

Gudhart: Now I am an old woman 93 years old and I am still keeping house, living by myself, do my own work, do my own work by myself in different ways.

Amir Hassanpour: Were you in Iran during all the years of the First World War? Did you see the massacres?

Gudhart: Yes, I saw the massacre of the Russians of the Kurds.

Hassanpour: In Savoujbulax?

Gudhart: Yes, in Savoujbulax. The first night they broke into our drug store, and drank some of our arsenic, and some of the Russians were killed from drinking the stuff. We did not kno, where they got killed but the Russians came in and accused us that we want to know what kind of the medicine it was. So they broke into our place. I was there when they second break out too [when they broke in for the second time] they broke into Mirza Rahman’s house.

Hassanpour: Were the Ottomans there? The Ottoman Turks were also in Savoujbulax?

The third person: Speak she did not hear.

Hassanpour: Did Dr. Fussom translate the translations in Savoujbulax?

Gudhart: We translated in Savoujbulax a dictionary, a hymn book, a Catechism, I don’t know, They  did a lot of writing. I do not remember, because I had lot of work with my hospital business, with my midwifery outside in villages, riding on horse back140-150 miles sometimes, and you could do nothing any more for the patient in the mountains.

Hassanpour:  Were people there helping him [Fossum] in translating?

Gudhart:  Yes, there were two people that was helping. One of them was Qazi Mohammad, [2]  our next door neighbour and Mirza Rahman, our teacher. They helped. There were lots of Kurdish people that could read Persian that translated it from the Persian into the Kurdish. They were Kurds. But, the Kurds like Qazi Ali, Qazi Muhammad, [3]  they were able to read Arabic and from that they were able to translate some of the things from the Arabic to the Kurdish.

Hassanpour: Is Qazi Muhammad, which one the brother of Qazi Ali?

Gudhart: The son , the son of Qazi Ali, the brother of Ali there were Ali Agha and Qazi Muhammad, Qazi Ali was the youngest one [4]. There were three Qazis there. They were very very nice people to work with. The ladies were particularly friendly till they were abused by the Law! [Allah?]

Hassanpour: Were these things that you translated, were they used in the town?

Gudhart: Yes, we could read it and we used them in the school and we used them in the church. Because  it was helped. We had the Catechism in Kurdish.We had quite a few things.  But they were all destroyed. We were left naked by the Shikaks. They destroyed everything, they could kill…every….   what was…

Hassanpour: You said there was a dictionary, too.

Gudhart: Yes, there was a dictionary, too.

Hassanpour: was that printed?

Gudhart: Yes, it was printed. There were at list half of a dozen. One of them, one of them, the last one that I had I gave it to a Jewish man in a hospital in Abadan. There were lots of things printed, but some of them were destroyed by fire, some of them were destroyed by war, some of them were just simply set to fire. The hymn book is in America, one of them that I know of.

Hassanpour: Where were they printed?

Gudhart: In New York; we had a Kurdish typewriter. And that was sold. I left that at Tabriz Mission in 1940.  But most of it was printed in New York.

Hassanpour: What was the language you used in the school? Did you teach in Kurdish or in Persian?

Gudhart: Kurdish

Hassanpour: How come it was in Kurdish?  Was there any government school,
Or, your school was the only one?

Gudhart: was there what?

Hassanpour: A school run by the government? Yours was the only one?

Gudhart: Kurdish they had Qazi. The place was run by the Persians. But there was no trouble between none of them.

The Third voice: Did not they provide school for the children?

Gudhart: No.

The third voice: You had the only teaching?

Gudhart: They had religious schools in the mosques for the boys. They had religious schools for the boys, but not in books, not in writing. By horrible 
language  taught. There were no schools. When I was there, there was no school except what was taught to the boys by one of the mullas and this and that. And the law was run by a Persian. The post office was run by a Persian. The Persian man, he spoke English and he spoke German, and the governor  was a Persian man. And the customs officer was a Persian man, but they spoke Kurdish. They spoke. And we only had a few soldiers, few officers, they remained there, and a doctor we had, we but before I left, before we left. The army came in encountering the Shikaks. The shikaks, that was the trouble, and the Persian government at that time did not give the people any trouble what so ever. They were with them together, and the shikaks were the troubles. They robbed us and killed Rev. Baschimond and killed the servant, killed lots of Kurds.  Stripped  us of everything. Put us out root [possibly Kurdish word for naked] of everything. So that was that. But the people, some of them came from Tabriz either Tehran, spoke German or Russian. Doctors came, most of the doctors were from Germany (possibly she means they had German education). They spoke German languages. And I knew two of them, they spoke German language. One officer in the barracks spoke German and they were educated in Germany. I think one  of them twas in Bakhtiary [he was from Bakhtiari] and the other Tehran. Some of them came with their wives, German wives and their family are doctors. There was no trouble among the Kurds and the government, except with Shikaks from the other side, from Turkey. The Lurs were bad at that time. But all they robbed and killed, that was all they count.

Hassanpour: When you first went to Savoujbulax, how was situation there?
Like situation of the people, how was the town? Was there any business, trade?

Gudhart: Yes, tobacco! tobacco was a big trade in Savoujbulax . Katire!
That I know. Tobacco and katire [Kurdish word meaning ‘gum tragacanth’ There were plenty of order. And  the traffic. We had a post, a post office and a custom house [she laughs…]

Hassanpour. Where would they trade with . Savoujbulax people where would they go to?

Gudhart: Russia, we got Russian trade, Russian staff, and they would go to Julfa and some of them would go to Russia. Some of them only go to Tabriz and bring stuff in. And there was a Russian consul and he was a Lithuanian (4) and he had a nice staff, till the shikaks came and the Turks came, and  they were  friendly, they were very very friendly with Kurdish people, and they only had something like 40 soldiers standing in the Savoujbulax at the consulate and horses, because we travelled with the horses only. And we had a telephone for Tabriz after 150 miles, and we could talk on a telephone to Urumia. That is about 80, 90 miles. And they had orders. Was Urumia, from Savoujbulax.

Hassanpour: This was before the war?

Gudhart: Before the war, before the terrible it break loose the shikaks.

Hassanpour: Why were the Russians there? How come they had a consulate?

Gudhart: I don’t know, and it was a Lithuanian Iyas, but they had a consulate there. The consul was a Lithuanian, Iyas, and there was a book written by  Mr. Fossum, in English [5] in the English language about the consul. Johan* Iyas he was a Lithuanian. He was, he lived at the barracks, he had 40 soldiers, but … I spoke English, I spoke German, spoke Russian and spoke Lithuanian, when he found out that I was a Lithuanian and could not speak very good Lithuanian.

Hassanpour: What was his name?

Gudhart: Iyas! He was from the lithofsky folk in Russia, he stood there. He was very  a man of 40, 50s, 60 maybe.

Hassanpour. Was he killed later?

Gudhart. Yes, he was killed.

Hassanpour: By whom?

Gudhart: By the Turks, by the revolutionaries. He was beheaded.

Hassanpour: Was Nikitine a consul there?

Hassanpour: Did the Turks have a consulate there? 

Gudhart: Yes

Hassanpour: How large it was?

Gudhart: I don’t know how large it was. But there was a consulate there I knew the house-keeper in Turkish consulate. Because there was a  traffic, a business traffic between Turkey and the Kurds and the Russia. Russia then controlled most of that part of Persia. Urumia, Sheyanabad, up to the Black Sea. But the consul was  killed, his soldiers were killed under the river. Near  Maragha.

Hassanpour: I read somewhere that a newspaper in Kurdish was published by one of the missionary groups. Is it true?

Gudhart: No, we did not have an, no, no body could read Kurdish, except Qazi Muhammad and two, four, five people. They could not read any Kurdish. They could not read Persian. Because they had  no school. The only school was ours,   missionary school.  And the  children. In the mosques they taught, four five boys. Later on I think they opened schools. But  not in our time.

Hassanpour: what did the big families do? Like the families of aghas, the merchants? How did they teach their children?

Gudhart: Well I saw, they washed and they bathed, and woxen the gardens and went shopping now and then on streets. They had sheep. They had gardens in front of their houses and most of them had parts in the villages. Like Qazis.
Qazi had a village, sent a food in and rice, and food and chicken from villages. And in all mosques we had gardens, so the women had to do their own sewing, their own   knitting, their own henna under heads, in the bathrooms. Things  to keep women, everybody. The rich had serwat [Kurdish word for wealth] and the poor were too poor.

The third voice: How they become rich? What was the source of their income?

Gudhart: They had villages, they had villages.

Hassanpour: So village was the most important thing? What was the most important, village or trade?

Gudhart: The village was the most important thing. The trade people had to go
for 150 miles to get trade. Some of them had to go all the way into Russia and Russia would bring the trade in through contraband. Others bring it in through customs. Turkey brought in lots of things that they had. Such us henna, stuff little adornment from Turkey, now and then we would get sugar from Belgium. Salt we got from Russia, and rope, and we had plenty of wools, we weaved carpets and we had to get the linen, the flaks, are already spun from Russia. And then we weaved the carpet. And we got the good dyes, most of the dyes would be from greens in the mountains, vegetable dye and we had hand weaving  machinery invented [imported] from Russia, when we had no machinery, oil we got from Russia, when we had not our own oil we did not know what to do with it. A pint of oil cost up to 50-60 cents, chays, and charcoal we burned, and dawe we burned. Dawe! [She laughs]

Hassanpour: who would use the oil?

GudhurtRussia.

Hassanpour: In the town.

Gudhart: [Nearly shouting], they used lamps, lamps, lamps, lamps do you hear me?

Hassanpour: Did any one afford buying lamps?

Gudhart: They used lamps, you had no lights, big lamps. Then candles we made, from kale

The third person: What was the main means of support? Was it rug weaving?  was  it agriculture?

Gudhart: We did not know anything about advertising.

Third Person: Not advertising, agriculture. How would the most people live? I know that you said some people were rich. But how did they get rich?  From  what means?

Gudhart: The villages.

Third person: But there has to be some product.

Gudhart: Villages produced wheat and barley and cotton. And  farming. The villages were raising sheep. We had lots of that. Bringing butter and bringing cheese, bringing yoghurt, and dawe we bringing in and they sow wheat. We did not see rye in Persia. And we had rice. And in the fall we looked for pancake manure draw mixed together with leaves and things for burning and for the   stove. And you buy milk, eggs, chicken, and you could eat chicken.

Third Person: Did they have cows?

Gudhart:  Sheep, sheep, sheep, goats, goats, goats. Cows are very very scarce. There were not enough  grass, just some of them, run the river banks, like Inderkash and Naghade could keep cows, Naghade, Chiyane that I know could keep cows. But only thing we had Sheytanabad that was near the Turkish border, and they raise opium there. We did not raise opium in Savoujbulax. You saw opium smokers there all over the street. Jews smoke most. I don’t remember a Kurd [raising her voice] that smoke opium or ate opium. Yes one of them I know. And he died and his wife, too. But there was a disgrace if she were an opium smoker. The Jewish did and the ‘Ecems did. So that is it.

The third person: Where was the opium grown?

Gudhart. Well it was grown at some places round mountains. Sheytanabad  near the Turkish border. And ‘Ecems grew opium. We did not grow opium. We grew them in a garden. I had opium for flowers we picked them up and the seed we put on bread a little bit. That does not do anything when the seeds come on bread. Does do nothing, it is like….. Because got two three tables for opium. We used them beautiful garden now and then. And the mosques had onion and lettuce, and when they came down from the mountains and pigeons we had. I used to go pigeon hunting. Dogs could not eat , they eat fish, because the dogs eat all the fish.


Amir  Hassanpour

Hassanpour: Which families were the richest ones, among the big families  ?

Gudhart:  Cami,Qazi Ali and Qazi Muhammad were not rich. Qazi Ali’s two brothers were rich and they kept Qazi Ali and Qazi Muhammad. Sayd Cami the carpet man and a couple of Jews were rich. Sayd  Rahman was a rich man, not too rich, he was in the tobacco business. But he was an honest man, he did not smoke and he did not chew, and he drank tea, he lived with his family, he was honest. I knew three four rich men, some Qazis had land. One of them had 400 sheep, and three, four sons, one of them married a Jewish girl [6], and they were rich people. I went over there quite a few times, the girls were sick, men were sick, Qazi was sick. That beautiful  home with the carpets. And Ali Agha was a rich man. He went to Germany, and Sardasht was a sheep country and goat country too, but it was very hard to use Sardasht milks and yoghurt , because they tasted oak, oak leaves. The mountains are full of oak  leaves, it is near Turkish border there.

Hassanpour: How was the relation between the town and villages?

Gudhart: There were very good. The town could not live without the villages.
Because the villages depended on the things like oil, and things begin to come in, wool, spanning machiner, goods for dresses, and silk, and when the trouble was when the border was shut up, and the smugglers started to come and they could not carry things from Turkey, India, smugglers, Because there were put customs, and they were caught. And Russia there were custom to pay for import and export, but the city and villages were very very good, most of them were merchants, the rich one were Kurds and poor merchants and sugar dealers;...raisers were most of them Jews. And the Jewish men were very nice. They were very very nice. I had a Jewish friend, and on Saturday they did not open their store. When I need something on Saturday, if somebody would have needed sugar, or tea or something that he had he gave me the key from the store door and I went and gave the people the stuff and they pay me and I paid Miski’ back. Most of them had common sense and made business, but the massacre came and Mirza Rahman and a baby boy was blooded and left among doors, crept in the …. Everything, when Iyas the consul was killed  . Persians they did not have no respect for the Russian army and Russian army had no respect for the people, they did know no difference between one or the other, they did not know you were a Turk, an ‘Ecem, or Kurd or Armenian or Syrian or Jew, you were Musulman. They just turned the light out and shot everything. That was a terrible massacre .That was a dirty war that killed women and children. They had no respect for nobody.

Gudhart: What time is it?

Hassanpour: I don’t know,

Third voice:  11:00 O’clock.

[End of the taped interview]

Notes by Hassan Ghazi:

1) The Lutheran Mission began its activities in Saujboulax in 1912 and published a monthly magazine, Kurdistan Missionary in the United States in 1910.
2) Obviously, there had been no such relationship between Fossum and Qazi Mohammad (who, in 1946, was the President of the short-lived Kurdish Republic), for the simple reason that when the Lutheran missionaries started their work in Saujnoulax, Qazi Mohammad was just 10 to11 years old. I think here Agusta mixes him up with Mustafa Qazi, who himself has indicated that he had helped Fossum with learning the Kurdish language.
3) It is doubtful that Qazi Ali had helped with translations. Qazi Muhammad first came  into contact with them in 1923, and Hannah Schonhood has stated that he had taken English lessons from her, and promised to help with a dictionary.  It seems Gudhart had very friendly relations with Qazi family, but she mixes up names and dates.

4) As Alexander Iyas knew the Lithuanian language, she says he was a Lithuanian; she gives his first name, wrongly, as Johan.Alexander Iyas was born in Finland.

5) The book that she says Fossum had written about Iyas is the dedication of
A Practical Kurdish Grammar to the memory of Iyas by Fossum. There is no evidence that such as book has been written or published.

6) This rich Qazi that she talks about is certainly Qazi Fettah, who in the period
of 1914-1915 was running Savoujbulax with Turkish blessing. The reason
I am most certain about it is Agusta’s reference to one of the sons of this particular Qazi who had married a Jewish girl. This is Abdul-Rahman, known as Axay Salar, the oldest son of Qazi Fettah, who married a Jewish woman. I myself have seen this lady, she was called “Xanme Chikolle,” i.e., the ‘small lady’ in Kurdish, and I had heard many times that she was Jewish originally. I and others used to joke with her grandsons, calling them bine cù, ‘born of Jews, of 


   Kurdish chieftains accompayning Augusta Gudhart From Tabriz to Soujbulax in 1923. Fortunately the discovery of the first picture in Family albums shed light on the identity of most of these Kurdish entourage. Ali Agha Jamard is mentioned by Gudhart in this intnterview.The second picture was printed on the cover of The Kurdistan Missionary, No.10. October 1923

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