Amir Hassanpour’s interview with Augusta Gudhart Philadelphia, June 12, 1977
Amir Hassanpour’s interview
with Augusta Gudhart
Transcribed from audio tape and annotated by
Hassan Ghazi
Augusta Gudhart: I went into the mission field from Philadelphia ,
to Iran to Savoujbulax, a
very nice little place in Persia Kurdistan were
very very nice to live with and to help one another. And I learned the Kurdish
language while we were translating the gospel of Saint Luke, with the men Mirza
Shamuel and Mirza Rahman and I learned Kurdish and I rather liked the language
of Kurdish. And we had a church and we had a dictionary printed in hymns and we
did sing very nice but Mr. Fossum the man that died later on, we had a hymn to
the tone of Onward Christian soldiers:
Weteni Bapirm, Kurdistan Qedim
Kéw u shax u Deshti xoshin bo dillim
Céy dayik u babme,
malli xushk u bira
Her tozéki u berdéki, bom mirwariye
Emin pashan chùm bo Tebriz, wextéki unja tékell bù, pashan chùm Téhran [Gudhart
utters the above sentences in Kurdish] and axri God dawa (War) in
the whole world broke out war and I had to come home and I remember the dear
friends in Kurdistan [Someone applauding in
the background].
1908[1] the mission was started by Rev. Fossum and then we worked
through Germany and there was a sister Meta van Der Schulenberg she was to be
for the orphanage and helped in the translation work, with Mirza Rahman and
Rev. Shamuel, and from there [Savoujbulax] we came on larger out on to the
villages and when the government had doctors there, I worked with the doctors
in Persia. Persian doctors I helped them, and they helped me and we educated
them, and when the Persian government turned over the things to the government
we left and I worked in Tabriz in a mission work and then I worked in Tehran
with Dr. Saleh in Irani Hospital for a year and a half, and so 1940 when we all
had to come home as mission field from all over the East, we all came home and
I worked in America as a nurse.
A voice in the background: You have a lot of wonderful memories about
all these people!
Gudhart: Now I am an old woman 93 years old and I am still keeping house,
living by myself, do my own work, do my own work by myself in different ways.
Amir Hassanpour: Were you in Iran
Gudhart: Yes, I saw the
massacre of the Russians of the Kurds.
Hassanpour: In Savoujbulax?
Gudhart: Yes, in Savoujbulax. The first night they broke into our drug store,
and drank some of our arsenic, and some of the Russians were killed from
drinking the stuff. We did not kno, where they got killed but the Russians came
in and accused us that we want to know what kind of the medicine it was. So
they broke into our place. I was there when they second break out too [when
they broke in for the second time] they broke into Mirza Rahman’s house.
Hassanpour: Were the Ottomans there? The Ottoman Turks were also
in Savoujbulax?
The third person: Speak she did not hear.
Hassanpour: Did Dr. Fussom translate the translations in
Savoujbulax?
Gudhart: We translated in Savoujbulax a dictionary, a hymn book, a Catechism, I
don’t know, They did a lot of writing. I
do not remember, because I had lot of work with my hospital business, with my
midwifery outside in villages, riding on horse back140-150 miles sometimes, and
you could do nothing any more for the patient in the mountains.
Hassanpour: Were people
there helping him [Fossum] in translating?
Gudhart: Yes, there were two people that
was helping. One of them was Qazi Mohammad, [2] our next door neighbour and Mirza Rahman, our
teacher. They helped. There were lots of Kurdish people that could read Persian
that translated it from the Persian into the Kurdish. They were Kurds. But, the
Kurds like Qazi Ali, Qazi Muhammad, [3] they were able to read Arabic and from that
they were able to translate some of the things from the Arabic to the Kurdish.
Hassanpour: Is Qazi Muhammad, which one the brother of Qazi Ali?
Gudhart: The son , the son of Qazi Ali, the brother of Ali there were Ali Agha
and Qazi Muhammad, Qazi Ali was the youngest one [4]. There were three Qazis
there. They were very very nice people to work with. The ladies were
particularly friendly till they were abused by the Law! [Allah?]
Hassanpour: Were these things that you translated, were they
used in the town?
Gudhart: Yes, we could read it and we used them in the school and we used them
in the church. Because it was helped. We
had the Catechism in Kurdish.We had quite a few things. But they were all destroyed. We were left
naked by the Shikaks. They destroyed everything, they could kill…every…. what was…
Hassanpour: You said there was a dictionary, too.
Gudhart: Yes, there was a dictionary, too.
Hassanpour: was that printed?
Gudhart: Yes, it was printed. There were at list half of a dozen. One of them,
one of them, the last one that I had I gave it to a Jewish man in a hospital in
Abadan. There were lots of things printed, but some of them were destroyed by
fire, some of them were destroyed by war, some of them were just simply set to
fire. The hymn book is in America
Hassanpour: Where were they printed?
Gudhart: In New York New York
Hassanpour: What was the language you used in the school? Did
you teach in Kurdish or in Persian?
Gudhart: Kurdish
Hassanpour: How come it was in Kurdish? Was there any government school,
Or, your school was the only one?
Gudhart: was there what?
Hassanpour: A school run by the government? Yours was the only
one?
Gudhart: Kurdish they had Qazi. The place was run by the Persians. But there
was no trouble between none of them.
The Third voice: Did not they provide school for the children?
Gudhart: No.
The third voice: You had the only teaching?
Gudhart: They had religious schools in the mosques for the boys. They had
religious schools for the boys, but not in books, not in writing. By
horrible
language taught. There were no
schools. When I was there, there was no school except what was taught to the
boys by one of the mullas and this and that. And the law was run by a Persian.
The post office was run by a Persian. The Persian man, he spoke English and he spoke
German, and the governor was a Persian
man. And the customs officer was a Persian man, but they spoke Kurdish. They
spoke. And we only had a few soldiers, few officers, they remained there, and a
doctor we had, we but before I left, before we left. The army came in
encountering the Shikaks. The shikaks, that was the trouble, and the Persian
government at that time did not give the people any trouble what so ever. They
were with them together, and the shikaks were the troubles. They robbed us and
killed Rev. Baschimond and killed the servant, killed lots of Kurds. Stripped us of everything. Put us out root [possibly Kurdish
word for naked] of everything. So that was that. But the people, some of them
came from Tabriz either Tehran Germany Germany Turkey
Hassanpour: When you first went to Savoujbulax, how was
situation there?
Like situation of the people, how was the town? Was there any business,
trade?
Gudhart: Yes, tobacco! tobacco was a big trade in Savoujbulax . Katire!
That I know. Tobacco and katire [Kurdish word meaning ‘gum
tragacanth’ There were plenty of order. And the traffic. We had a post, a post office and
a custom house [she laughs…]
Hassanpour. Where would they trade with . Savoujbulax people
where would they go to?
Gudhart: Russia , we got
Russian trade, Russian staff, and they would go to Julfa and some of them would
go to Russia Tabriz Tabriz
Hassanpour: This was before the war?
Gudhart: Before the war, before the terrible it break loose the shikaks.
Hassanpour: Why were the Russians there? How come they had a
consulate?
Gudhart: I don’t know, and it was a Lithuanian Iyas, but they had a consulate
there. The consul was a Lithuanian, Iyas, and there was a book written by Mr. Fossum, in English [5] in the English
language about the consul. Johan* Iyas he was a Lithuanian. He was, he lived at
the barracks, he had 40 soldiers, but … I spoke English, I spoke German, spoke
Russian and spoke Lithuanian, when he found out that I was a Lithuanian and
could not speak very good Lithuanian.
Hassanpour: What was his name?
Gudhart: Iyas! He was from the lithofsky folk in Russia
Hassanpour. Was he killed later?
Gudhart. Yes, he was killed.
Hassanpour: By whom?
Gudhart: By the Turks, by the revolutionaries. He was beheaded.
Hassanpour: Was Nikitine a consul there?
Hassanpour: Did the Turks have a consulate there?
Gudhart: Yes
Hassanpour: How large it was?
Gudhart: I don’t know how large it was. But there was a consulate there I knew
the house-keeper in Turkish consulate. Because there was a traffic, a business traffic between Turkey and
the Kurds and the Russia. Russia
then controlled most of that part of Persia Black Sea . But the consul was killed, his soldiers were killed under the
river. Near Maragha.
Hassanpour: I read somewhere that a newspaper in Kurdish was
published by one of the missionary groups. Is it true?
Gudhart: No, we did not have an, no, no body could read Kurdish, except Qazi
Muhammad and two, four, five people. They could not read any Kurdish. They
could not read Persian. Because they had no school. The only school was ours, missionary school. And the children. In the mosques they taught, four
five boys. Later on I think they opened schools. But not in our time.
Hassanpour: what did the big families do? Like the families of
aghas, the merchants? How did they teach their children?
Gudhart: Well I saw, they washed and they bathed, and woxen the gardens and
went shopping now and then on streets. They had sheep. They had gardens in
front of their houses and most of them had parts in the villages. Like Qazis.
Qazi had a village, sent a food in and rice, and food and chicken from
villages. And in all mosques we had gardens, so the women had to do their own
sewing, their own knitting, their own henna under heads, in the
bathrooms. Things to keep women, everybody.
The rich had serwat [Kurdish word for wealth] and the poor were too poor.
The third voice: How they become rich? What was the source of their
income?
Gudhart: They had villages, they had villages.
Hassanpour: So village was the most important thing? What was
the most important, village or trade?
Gudhart: The village was the most important thing. The trade people had to go
for 150 miles to get trade. Some of them had to go all the way into Russia and Russia Turkey Turkey , now and then we would get sugar from Belgium Russia , and
rope, and we had plenty of wools, we weaved carpets and we had to get the
linen, the flaks, are already spun from Russia
Hassanpour: who would use the oil?
Gudhurt: Russia
Hassanpour: In the town.
Gudhart: [Nearly shouting], they used lamps, lamps, lamps, lamps do you
hear me?
Hassanpour: Did any one afford buying lamps?
Gudhart: They used lamps, you had no lights, big lamps. Then candles we made,
from kale.
The third person: What was the main means of support? Was it rug
weaving? was it agriculture?
Gudhart: We did not know anything about advertising.
Third Person: Not advertising, agriculture. How would the most people
live? I know that you said some people were rich. But how did they get
rich? From what means?
Gudhart: The villages.
Third person: But there has to be some product.
Gudhart: Villages produced wheat and barley and cotton. And farming. The villages were raising sheep. We
had lots of that. Bringing butter and bringing cheese, bringing yoghurt, and dawe
we bringing in and they sow wheat. We did not see rye in Persia
Third Person: Did they have cows?
Gudhart: Sheep, sheep, sheep, goats,
goats, goats. Cows are very very scarce. There were not enough grass, just some of them, run the river banks,
like Inderkash and Naghade could keep cows, Naghade, Chiyane that I know could
keep cows. But only thing we had Sheytanabad that was near the Turkish border,
and they raise opium there. We did not raise opium in Savoujbulax. You saw
opium smokers there all over the street. Jews smoke most. I don’t remember a
Kurd [raising her voice] that smoke opium or ate opium. Yes one of them I know.
And he died and his wife, too. But there was a disgrace if she were an opium
smoker. The Jewish did and the ‘Ecems did. So that is it.
The third person: Where was the opium grown?
Gudhart. Well it was grown at some places round mountains. Sheytanabad near the Turkish border. And ‘Ecems grew
opium. We did not grow opium. We grew them in a garden. I had opium for flowers
we picked them up and the seed we put on bread a little bit. That does not do
anything when the seeds come on bread. Does do nothing, it is like….. Because
got two three tables for opium. We used them beautiful garden now and then. And
the mosques had onion and lettuce, and when they came down from the mountains
and pigeons we had. I used to go pigeon hunting. Dogs could not eat , they eat
fish, because the dogs eat all the fish.
Amir Hassanpour
Amir Hassanpour
Hassanpour: Which families were the richest ones, among the big
families ?
Gudhart: Cami,Qazi Ali and Qazi Muhammad
were not rich. Qazi Ali’s two brothers were rich and they kept Qazi Ali and
Qazi Muhammad. Sayd Cami the carpet man and a couple of Jews were rich. Sayd Rahman was a rich man, not too rich, he was in
the tobacco business. But he was an honest man, he did not smoke and he did not
chew, and he drank tea, he lived with his family, he was honest. I knew three
four rich men, some Qazis had land. One of them had 400 sheep, and three, four
sons, one of them married a Jewish girl [6], and they were rich people. I went
over there quite a few times, the girls were sick, men were sick, Qazi was
sick. That beautiful home with the
carpets. And Ali Agha was a rich man. He went to Germany
Hassanpour: How was the relation between the town and villages?
Gudhart: There were very good. The town could not live without the villages.
Because the villages depended on the things like oil, and things begin
to come in, wool, spanning machiner, goods for dresses, and silk, and when the
trouble was when the border was shut up, and the smugglers started to come and
they could not carry things from Turkey, India, smugglers, Because there were
put customs, and they were caught. And Russia there were custom to pay for
import and export, but the city and villages were very very good, most of them
were merchants, the rich one were Kurds and poor merchants and sugar
dealers;...raisers were most of them Jews. And the Jewish men were very nice.
They were very very nice. I had a Jewish friend, and on Saturday they did not
open their store. When I need something on Saturday, if somebody would have
needed sugar, or tea or something that he had he gave me the key from the store
door and I went and gave the people the stuff and they pay me and I paid Miski’
back. Most of them had common sense and made business, but the massacre came
and Mirza Rahman and a baby boy was blooded and left among doors, crept in the
…. Everything, when Iyas the consul was killed . Persians they did not have no respect for
the Russian army and Russian army had no respect for the people, they did know
no difference between one or the other, they did not know you were a Turk, an
‘Ecem, or Kurd or Armenian or Syrian or Jew, you were Musulman. They just
turned the light out and shot everything. That was a terrible massacre .That
was a dirty war that killed women and children. They had no respect for nobody.
Gudhart: What time is it?
Hassanpour: I don’t know,
Third voice: 11:00 O’clock.
[End of the taped interview]
Notes by Hassan Ghazi:
1) The Lutheran Mission began its activities in Saujboulax in 1912 and
published a monthly magazine, Kurdistan Missionary in the United States
in 1910.
2) Obviously, there had been no such relationship between Fossum and
Qazi Mohammad (who, in 1946, was the President of the short-lived Kurdish Republic),
for the simple reason that when the Lutheran missionaries started their work in
Saujnoulax, Qazi Mohammad was just 10 to11 years old. I think here Agusta mixes
him up with Mustafa Qazi, who himself has indicated that he had helped Fossum
with learning the Kurdish language.
3) It is doubtful that Qazi Ali had helped with translations. Qazi
Muhammad first came into contact with
them in 1923, and Hannah Schonhood has stated that he had taken English lessons
from her, and promised to help with a dictionary. It seems Gudhart had very friendly relations
with Qazi family, but she mixes up names and dates.
4) As Alexander Iyas knew the Lithuanian language, she says he was a
Lithuanian; she gives his first name, wrongly, as Johan.Alexander Iyas was born
in Finland.
5) The book that she says Fossum had written about Iyas is the
dedication of
A Practical Kurdish Grammar to the memory of Iyas by Fossum. There is no
evidence that such as book has been written or published.
6) This rich Qazi that she talks about is certainly Qazi Fettah, who in the
period
of 1914-1915 was running Savoujbulax with Turkish blessing. The reason
I am most certain about it is Agusta’s reference to
one of the sons of this particular Qazi who had married a Jewish girl. This is
Abdul-Rahman, known as Axay Salar, the oldest son of Qazi Fettah, who married a
Jewish woman. I myself have seen this lady, she was called “Xanme Chikolle,” i.e.,
the ‘small lady’ in Kurdish, and I had heard many times that she was Jewish
originally. I and others used to joke with her grandsons, calling them bine
cù, ‘born of Jews, of 
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